Wilcott's Full HSCA Testimony

EXECUTIVE SESSION

ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

WEDNESDAY, MARCH 22, 1978

House of Representatives,

John F. Kennedy Subcommittee
of the Select Committee on
Assassinations,

Washington, D. C.

The subcommittee met at 10:20 a.m., pursuant to notice,

in room 2344 of the Rayburn Office Building, the Honorable

Richard Preyer (Chairman of the subcommittee), presiding.

Present: Representatives Preyer (presiding), Dodd and

Sawyer.

Also Present: Michael Goldsmith, Counsel, and Gary

Cornwell, Counsel.

Also Present: Elizabeth Berning, Chief Clerk, and

Charles Berk, Betsy Wolf and James Wolf.

Mr. Preyer. Thank you for being here today, and I will

call the subcommittee to order at this time.

I will ask if you will stand and be sworn.

Do you solemnly swear that the evidence you are about

to give before this subcommittee will be the truth, the

whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Wilcott. I do.

Mr. Preyer. I would like before we begin to read a

written statement concerning the subject of the investigation.

We are operating under House Resolution 222, which man-

dates the Committee to conduct a full and complete investi-

gation and study of the circumstances surrounding the assas-

sination and death of President John F. Kennedy, including

determining whether the existing laws of the United States

concerning the protection of the President and the investiga-

tory jurisdiction and capability of agencies and departments

are adequate in their provisions and enforcement; and whether

there was full disclosure of evidence and information among

agencies and department of the United States Government and

whether any evidence or information not in the possession of

an agency of department would have been of assistance in

investigating the assassination and why such information was

not provided or collected by that agency or department, and

to make recommendations to the House if the Select Committee

deems it appropriate for the amendment of existing legislation

or the enactment of new legislation.

That is what we are attempting to accomplish, which is

quite a big order.

We appreciate your being here today, Mr. Wilcott.

(Whereupon, a recess was taken while the members of the

Committee went to the floor of the House for a vote.)
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Mr. Preyer. We will come to order.

We will resume the session, and I will recognize Counsel

to begin his questioning.

TESTIMONY OF JAMES B. WILCOTT, A FORMER EMPLOYEE

OF THE CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE AGENCY:

Mr. Goldsmith. For the record, would you please state

your name and address and occupation?

Mr. Wilcott. My name is James B. Wilcott. My address

is 2761 Atlantic Street, in Concord, and my occupation is

electronic technician.

Mr. Goldsmith. Where is Concord located?

Mr. Wilcott. It is a little bit east of Oakland,

California.

Mr. Goldsmith. Have you received a copy of the

Committee's rules?

Mr. Wilcott. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. And a copy of the relevant House

Resolutions?

Mr. Wilcott. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. And, Mr. Wilcott, is it true that you

are a former employee with the CIA and that you are here

today testifying voluntarily without a subpoena?

Mr. Wilcott. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. During what years did you work for the

CIA?
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Mr. Wilcott. I worked from the years, May, of 1957 to,

April, of 1966.

Mr. Goldsmith. And in what general capacity did you

work with the CIA?

Mr. Wilcott. All in the finance -- in accounting all

of the time.

Mr. Goldsmith. How did you become employed with the CIA?

Mr. Wilcott. I was recruited from the school in Syracuse

New York, where I was taking a course in accounting and busi-

ness administration.

Mr. Goldsmith. Very generally now, what were your

responsibilities as a finance employee with the agency?

Mr. Wilcott. Well, from May of 1957 to January of 1960 -

Mr. Goldsmith -- excuse me, just answer the question

very generally, without referring to anything right now, and

please describe generally what your responsibilities were as

a finance officer.

Mr. Wilcott. My. responsibilities were primarily record

keeping and disbursing of funds.

Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. Wilcott, are you here with Counsel

today?

Mr. Wilcott. Yes, I am.

Mr. Goldsmith. Would your Counsel identify himself

for the recorder?

Mr. Schaap. My name is William Schaap, S - c - h - a -

a - p (spelling), and I am an Attorney here in Washington.

I will give my card to the Committee.

Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. Wilcott, did I ask you to prepare

a list indicating the dates that you were employed with the

CIA and where you were stationed?

Mr. Wilcott. Yes, you did.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did you prepare such a list?

Mr. Wilcott. Yes, I did.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you have that list with you?

Mr. Wilcott. Yes. I do.

Mr. Goldsmith. Referring to that list, would you tell

the Committee where you were stationed during your period with

the CIA?

Mr. Wilcott. Certainly, from May of 1957 to January of

1960, I was in the pre-fab building on the Potomac in finance.

During the period, it was unvouchered funds, and my duties

were general accounting, and my rate in status was GS-5.

From about January of 1960 to about June of 1960, I

was transferred to Finance Field Payroll, also, in this same

building, on the Potomac. This was making payments and

keeping pay records.

From June of 1960 to June of 1964, I was stationed at

XXXXXXX Station, and my primary duty was finance and cash

disbursements. This was all cash payments and record keeping

for the station. And during that period, I had been promoted

GS-7 and also gained a career status.

From June of 1964 to about December of 1964, I was at

Roseland. This was just prior to moving to Langley, in

finance, and my duties there were policing accounts, and

included auditing of special accounts.

From January of 1965 to about March of 1965, I was at

Langley in the same area, in finance, policing accounts and

auditing of special accounts, and I was promoted up to GS-9.

From April of 1965 to April of 1966, I was at Miami

Station in finance, and I was handling the staff payroll.

This was preparing and reconciling payrolls.

In April of 1966, I resigned from the CIA.

Mr. Goldsmith. I take it, from your testimony, that

in November of 1963, you were stationed in XXXXXXXXXXXXX

Station, is that correct?

Mr. Wilcott. That is right.

Mr. Goldsmith. Drawing your attention to the period

immediately after the assassination of President Kennedy,

at that time, did you come across any information concerning

Lee Harvey Oswald's relationship with the CIA?

Mr. Wilcott. Yes, I did.

Mr. Goldsynith. And will you tell the Committee what that

relationship was?

Mr. Wilcott. Well, it was my understanding that Lee

Harvey Oswald was an employee of the agency and was an agent

of the agency.

Mr. Goldsmith. What do you mean by the term "agent"?

Mr. Wilcott. That he was a regular employee, receiving

a full-time salary for agent work for doing CIA operational

work.

Mr. Goldsmith. How did this information concerning

Oswald first come to your attention?

Mr. Wilcott. The first time I heard about Oswald being

connected in any way with CIA was the day after the Kennedy

assassination.

Mr. Goldsmith. And how did that come to your attention:

Mr. Wilcott. Well, I was on day duty for the station.

It was a guard-type function at the station, which I worked

for overtime. There was a lot of excitement going on at the

station after the Kennedy assassination.

Towards the end of my tour of duty, I heard certain

things about Oswald somehow being connected with the agency,

and I didn't really believe this when I heard it, and I

thought it was absurd. Then, as time Went on, I began to

hear more things in that line.

Mr. Goldsmith. I think we had better go over that one

more time.

When, exactly, was the very first time that you heard

or came across information that Oswald was an agent?

Mr. Wilcott. I heard references to it the day after

the assassination.

Mr. Goldsmith. And who made these references to Oswald

being an agent of the CIA?

Mr. Wilcott. I can't remember the exact persons. There

was talk about it going on at the station, and several months

following at the station.

Mr. Goldsmith. How many people made this reference

to Oswald being an agent of the CIA?

Mr. Wilcott. At least -- there was at least six or

seven people, specifically, who said that they either knew

or believed Oswald to be an agent of the CIA.

Mr. Goldsmith. Was Jerry Fox one of the people that

made. this allegation?

Mr. Wilcott. To the best of my recollection, yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. And who is Jerry Fox?

Mr. Wilcott. Jerry Fox was a Case Officer for his branch

the Soviet Russia Branch, XXXXXXXXXX Station, who purchased

information from the Soviets.

Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. Wilcott, did I ask you to prepare

a list of CIA Case Officers working at XXXXXXXXX Station in

1963?

Mr. Wilcott. Yes, you did.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did you prepare such a list?

Mr. Wilcott. Yes, I did.

Mr. Goldsmith. Is that list complete and does it have

every CIA Case Officer who worked XXXXXXXXXX in 1963?

Mr. Wilcott. Oh, no. It doesn't have every one. It

has every one that I can remember.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did you bring that list with you today?

Mr. Wilcott. Yes, I did.

Mr. Goldsmith. Were any of these people on your list

possible subjects who made references to Oswald being a CIA

agent?

Mr. Wilcott. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. Would you read the list to the Committee?

Mr. Wilcott. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. Only of Case Officers.

Ms. Berning. I think we ought to state that the record

shows that Mr. Sawyer is a member of the Kennedy Subcommitte

Preyer. We will.

Mr. Goldsmith. Upon your memory and the list that your

brought with you today, will you tell the Committee the names

of the CIA Case Officers who you remember working XXXXXXXXXX

in 1963?

Mr. Wilcott. Yes. There was XXXXXXXXXXXX Branch,

who had XXXXXXXXXXX cover.

Jerry Fox, SR Branch, Soviet Russia Branch --

Mr. Goldsmith. Excuse me, please proceed very slowly.

Mr. Wilcott. Jerry Fox, SR Branch, Reid Dennis, Chief

of Soviet Satellite Branch; and XXXXXXXXXX, China Branch,

and he also had a cover.

John P. Horton, XXXXXXXXX Section; XXXXXXXXXXXXX

Branch; and Chester Ito, XXXXXXXXX Branch; and Kan Takai, XXXXX

Branch; and Jim Delaney, China Branch; and Bob Rentner, SR

Branch -- and there is some question about that, the branch

he was with.

Larry Watanabi, XXXXXX Branch, Senior Case Officer; and

XXXXXXXXXXX, deep commercial cover agent.

There was a person, Dave, who was a Deputy Chief.

Dave -- I can't remember his last name, Deputy Chief of the

China Branch; and then a person whose last name was XXXXXXXXX

in the XXXXXXXXX Branch.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you remember which of these individuals

if any, made the specific allegation or reference that Oswald

was an agent?

Mr. Wilcott. It has been 15 years, and I can't remember

specifically who said what, but certainly I am sure that Jerry

Fox, for instance, had at least made some mention of it.

Mr. Goldsmith. At the time that this allegation first

came to your attention, did you discuss it with anyone?

Mr. Wilcott. Oh, yes. I discussed it with my friends

and the people that I was associating with socially.

Mr. Goldsmith. Who were your friends that you discussed

this with?

Mr. Wilcott. XXXXXXXXXXXX George Breen, Ed Luck, and
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XXXXXXXXXXXXX.

Mr. Goldsmith. Who was George Breen?

Mr. Wilcott. George Breen was a person in Registry,

who was my closest friend while I was in XXXXXXXXXXXXXX.

Mr. Goldsmith. Was he a CIA employee?

Mr. Wilcott. Yes, he was.

Mr. Goldsmith. And would he corroborate your obser-

vation that Oswald was an agent?

Mr. Wilcott. I don't know.

Mr. Goldsmith. At the time that this allegation first

came to your attention, did you learn the name of Oswald's

Case Offficer at the CIA?

Mr. Wilcott. No.

Mr. Goldsmith. Were there any other times during your

stay with the CIA at XXXXXXXXXX Station that you came across

information that Oswald had been a CIA agent?

Mr. Wilcott. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. When was that?

Mr. Wilcott. The specific incident was soon after the

Kennedy assassination, where an agent, a Case Officer -- I

am sure it was a Case Officer -- came up to my window to draw

money, and he specifically said in the conversation that

ensued, he specifically said, "Well, Jim, the money that I

drew the last couple of weeks ago or so was money," either

for the Oswald project or for Oswald.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you remember the name of this Case

Officer?

Mr. Wilcott. No, I don't.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you remember when specifically

this conversation took place?

Mr. Wilcott. Not specifically, only generally.

Mr. Goldsmith. How many months after the assassination

was this?

Mr. Wilcott. I think it must have been two or three

omths (sic) after the assassination.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you remember where this conver-

sation took place?

Mr. Wilcott. It was right at my window, my disbursing

cage window.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did you discuss this information with

anyone?

Mr. Wilcott. Oh, yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. With whom?

Mr. Wilcott. Certainly with George Breen, XXXXXXXXXXX

the circle of social friends that we had.

Mr. Goldsmith. How do you spell XXXXXXXXXX last name?

Mr. Wilcott. XXXXXXXXXXXXX (spelling).

Mr. Schaap. For the record, I have made a list of all

of these spellings of the names which have been mentioned,

which I will give to the stenographer so that he will have

them correctly.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did this Case Officer tell you what

Oswald's cryptonym was?

Mr. Wilcott. Yes, he mentioned the cryptonym specifically

under which the money was drawn.

Mr. Goldsmith. And what did he tell you the cryptonym

was?

Mr. Wilcott. I cannot remember.

Mr. Goldsmith. What was your response to this revelatic

as to what Oswald's cryptonym was? Did you write it down or

do anything?

Mr. Wilcott. No; I think that I looked through my

advance book -- and I had a book where the advances on projects

were run, and I leafed through them, and I must have at least

leafed through them to see if what he said was true.

Mr. Goldsmith. And are you saying then that you attempted

to investigate this allegation?

Mr. Wilcott. No, I am not saying that. It was more of

a casual kind of thing, to my way of thinking.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did you check your cash disbursement

files?

Mr. Wilcott. Not the files, no.

Mr. Goldsmith. I am not sure I am following, then, what

specifically you did check.

Mr. Wilcott. It was a book that I had. At the end of

the day we would list all of the advances that were made in

an advance book. It was just a three-ring binder, and we

would list down the advances by cryptonym and the amounts

and then reconcile that with the daily disbursements.

Mr. Goldsmith. How long were these records maintained?

Mr. Wilcott. They were maintained on a thirty-day

basis, and then they were closed off at the end of the month.

Mr. Goldsmith. So, does that mean you were able to check

back only thirty days from the time that you were given this

information?

Mr. Wilcott. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. I realize this is testimony 15 years

after the fact. However, if you received this information

two or three months after the assassination, at a time that

Oswald was already dead and had been dead for two or three

months, what purpose would have been served by checking

records that were only 30 days old?

Do you follow the question?

Mr. Wilcott. No.

Mr. Goldsmith. Well, in other words, if you got the

information three months after the assassination, Oswald had

already been dead for three months, is that right?

Mr. Wilcott. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. Answer "yes" or "no" for the recorder.

Mr. Wilcott. Yes.
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Mr. Goldsmith. You testified that your records were

only kept for thirty days, is that correct?

Mr. Wilcott. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. Then, by checking your records, which

only went back thirty days, isn't it true that you wouldn't

have gotten any information concerning Oswald anyway because

Oswald had already been dead for one or two months?

Mr. Wilcott. That is true.

Mr. Goldsmith. So, then, really, no purpose would have

been served by checking those records?

Mr. Wilcott. That is right.

Mr. Goldsmith. And did you check any other records?

Mr. Wilcott. No.

Mr. Preyer. I understand this might be a good place

for us to break and go and vote, so that we will take another

recess for about ten minutes. I am sorry.

(Whereupon, a recess was taken while the members of

I the Committee went to the floor of the House for a vote.)

Mr. Preyer. The Committee will resume.

Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. Wilcott, you indicated that after

receiving this information concerning Oswald's cryptonym, you

went back to check some files, is that correct?

Mr. Wilcott. Not really files; it was my book.

Mr. Goldsmith. Your book.

Mr. Wilcott. I flipped through it.

Mr. Goldsmith. What is the name of the book?

Mr. Wilcott. It was my Request for Advance Book.

Mr. Goldsmith. And for purposes of clarification, now,

if Oswald was already dead at the time that you went to this

book, why did you go back to examine the book?

Mr. Wilcott. Well, I am sorry -- if Oswald was what?

Mr. Goldsmith. At the time you went to look at the

book, Oswald was already dead is that correct?

Mr. Wilcott. That is right.

Mr. Goldsmith. Why did you go back to look at the

book?

Mr. Wilcott. Well, the payments that were made especially

to substations like Oswald's was operated -- it was a sub-

station of the XXXXXXXX station, and they had one in XXXXXX

and they had one in XXXXXXXXX-- and it may be six months or

even a year after the intial allocation that the final

accounting for those funds were submitted, and they would

operate out of revolving funds or out of their own personal

funds in many cases.

Mr. Goldsmith. So, is your testimony then that even

though. Oswald was already dead at that time, the book might

have contained a reference to either Oswald or the Oswald

project and that that reference would have been to a period

six months or even a year earlier, is that correct?

Mr. Wilcott. That is correct.

Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. Wilcott, how long were these advance

books retained?

Mr. Wilcott. They were retained for approximately one

year by the finance office, approximately one to two years,

and were destroyed at the time of audit.

Mr. Goldsmith. So that they would be routinely destroyed

at the time of auditing?

Mr. Wilcott. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did you check any of the earlier books?

Mr. Wilcott. No, I didn't, as far as the Oswald crypto-

nym was concerned; no, I didn't.

Mr. Goldsmith. So basically, you checked only one of

the advance books, is that correct?

Mr. Wilcott. My current one that I had on my counter.

Mr. Goldsmith. And when you testified earlier that you

learned Oswald's cryptonym, by that do you mean that you

learned both Oswald's personal cryptonym and his project

cryptonym, or was it one of the two?

Mr. Wilcott. Well, it was just a cryptonym, and it

could refer to a person, or it could refer to something else

and I would have no way of knowing what a cryptonym referred

to.

Mr. Goldsmith. So, when the officer told you -- strike

that.

So, when the Case Officer made reference to a cryptonym

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you didn't know whether the cryptonym referred to Oswald

specifically or to a project in which Oswald had been involved

is that correct?

Mr. Wilcott. Yes, sir.

Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. Wilcott, assuming that Oswald had

been employed as an agent by the CIA, would there have been

a reference to that fact in the CIA's cash disbursement file?

Mr. Wilcott. No.

Mr. Goldsmith. Why not?

Mr. Wilcott. Anything they had there would have --

sometimes they used as many as two or three different crypto-

nyms and they would have -- it all depended on how far they

wanted to isolate it from the original source, from the

original source as to where the project was run.

Mr. Goldsmith. But as a matter of routine, would the

CIA cash disbursement files refer to the cryptonym of either

the person or the project that is receiving funds?

Mr. Wilcott. Yes, I am sure somewhere.

Mr. Goldsmith. As a matter of routine, there would be

that reference? Do you believe that there was such a reference

to Oswald?

Yes, I do, and I believe there was such a reference.

Mr. Goldsmith. Well, if I understand your correctly,

then, you answer now was somewhat different from what you

testified earlier. And I will ask the question again, okay

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Mr. Wilcott. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. Assuming that Oswald was an agent for

the CIA, would the agency's cash disbursement files have

referred to either Oswald or to his cryptonym?

Mr. Wilcott. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. And you have had access to the cash

disbursement files at XXXXXXXXXXXXX Station?

Mr. Wilcott. Yes, for a limited period.

Mr. Goldsmith. Were you ever able to check those par-

ticular files?

Mr. Wilcott. I was able to but I never did.

Mr. Goldsmith. So, you never checked the cash disburse-

ment files to see if any reference was made there to Oswald's

cryptonym, is that correct?

Mr. Wilcott. That is right. It was only my personal

files -- my internal files, prior to the end of the month.

Mr. Goldsmith. I understand.

How long were the XXXXXXXXX cash disbursement files or

records retained?

Mr. Wilcott. The details approximately two years. We

had accountings, or we had audits about every two years,

and then then files that I kept the requests for advances,

the details of the accountings that were done usually on a

monthly basis by the XXXXX Station Branches, would be destroyed

and then they would be -- and, in fact, I helped destroy them.

Mr. Goldsmith. Are you saying, then, that the cash

disbursement files as a matter of routine would be periodically

destoryed? (sic)

Mr. Wilcott. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know whether CIA Headquarters would

have had either copies or originals of the cash disbursement

files?

Mr. Wilcott. They would have summaries of some sort.

Mr. Goldsmith. Would those summaries be destroyed as a

matter of routine, to your knowledge?

Mr. Wilcott. I really don't know.

Mr. Goldsmith. Were you ever able to find any indication

in any of the XXXXXXX Station's records that Oswald was, in

fact, a CIA agent?

Mr. Wilcott. Well, I never really looked.

Mr. Goldsmith. To your knowledge, would any records at

CIA Headquarters document that Oswald was a CIA agent?

Mr. Wilcott. I believe they would at one time. Whether

they are there now or not is hard to say.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you have any personal knowledge that

any records at CIA Headquarters were ever destroyed?

Mr. Wilcott. No.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you have any knowledge of any record

of the CIA at the XXXXXXXX Station ever being destroyed out of

the ordinary course of business, not as a matter of routine?

Mr. Wilcott. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. To your personal knowledge, CIA records

XXXXXXXXXX were destroyed?

Mr. Wilcott. Destroyed or changed.

Mr. Goldsmith. Could you give an example of that?

Mr. Wilcott. Yes. Let us say, for instance, that there

was a certain project going on, and the project was one that

became known that this project was being carried out --

and we call it "flaps," -- and the Case Officer in charge

might get word that somebody from headquarters was coming

to review the files to investigate the flap. Well, they

would go through the files and take out anything that they

thought was, say, indicative of how this flap occurred and

change the files.

For instance, in accounting, when we had our audits,

for instance, in most of the audits, he would call up some-

body -- let's say in China Branch -- and say "I know you

were having problems with this, would you like to look it

over before the auditors come?", and they might look it over

and retype the accounting for funds for their project and,

you know, make changes that they might think were in their

interest to do.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did you ever actually Xerox records

being destroyed or changed?

Mr. Wilcott. Yes, I did.

Mr. Goldsmith. And have you just described one of

those instances to us?

Mr. Wilcott. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. Wilcott after leaving the XXXXXXXXX

Station, was there any other time when you came across any

information that indicated that Oswald was a CIA agent?

Mr. Wilcott. In conversation.

Mr. Goldsmith. Is the answer to that "yes"?

Mr. Wilcott. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. When did that occur?

Mr. Wilcott. From the time I left I talked at various

times, especially at parties and things like that, on social

occasions, with people at headquarters and with people at my

station, and we would converse about it and I used to say

things like, "What do you think about Oswald being connected

with the CIA?", and things like that.

Mr. Goldsmith. What was their response?

Mr. Wilcott. The response was, among quote a few people

"Oh, well, I am sure he was."

Mr. Goldsmith. What were these people's names?

Mr. Wilcott. Well, George Breen, again, after we came

back from XXXXXXXX, for instance, XXXXXXXX was a person

that I knew before I had gone to XXXXXX Station, and I met

with him, and I had dinner at his house with his wife and my

wife.
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Mr. Goldsmith. Just give us their names. Anyone e1se?

Mr. Wilcott. Not that I can recall.

Mr. Goldsmith. So, it is your testimony that, once you

left the XXXXXXXX station, people, both at headquarters, in

Langley, and at the Miami Station, made references to Oswald

being an agent, is that correct?

Mr. Wilcott. Yes, in a speculative manner.

Mr. Goldsmith. How many people have you spoken to that

said that Oswald was an agent of the CIA, to the best of

your recollection?

Mr. Schaap. Do you mean, how many people who were in

the CIA or how many people in the general population?

Mr. Goldsmith. How many people in the CIA?

Mr. Wilcott. With any degree of certainty, other than

just speculation, I would say, six or seven with some degree

of certainty.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you have a personal opinion as to how

or for what purpose the CIA might have handled any projects

that involved Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. Wilcott. I am sorry?

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you have an opinion as to how the

CIA might handled any projects involving Oswald and

for what purpose they might have used Oswald?

Mr. Wilcott. Yes, I have opinions.

Mr. Goldsmith. What is that opinion?
24

Mr. Wilcott. I believe that Oswald was a double agent,

was sent over to the Soviet Union to do intelligence work,

that the defection was phoney and it was set up and that

I believe that Marina Oswald was an agent that had been

recruited sometime before and was waiting their in Tokyo

for Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. Goldsmith. What is the basis for that opinion?

Mr. Wilcott. The basis for that is discussions that

I had with people at the XXXXX Station. Those are discussions

with people who gave the indication that there was every cer-

tainty that Oswald was an agent of CIA, runout of XXXXXXX

Station, and that he was freed from Russia there in the

final courses in Russia and was trained by CIA people at

Atsugi.

Mr. Goldsmith. However, your testimony is that you

spoke to only six people as an estimate who indicated that

Oswald was a CIA agent -- and when I say six people, I mean

six CIA people, is that correct?

There were more people than that that believed it, and

six people with any degree of certainty that, you know, I

felt from what they were saying that they either had some

kind of substantial knowledge, or they had talked to somebody

who had some knowledge.

Mr. Goldsmith. How many people from the CIA did you

speak to who speculated that Oswald was an agent?

Mr. Wilcott. Dozens, literally dozens.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you have any explanation for why

none of these people have come forward with this story?

Mr. Wilcott. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. What is that explanation?

Mr. Wilcott. I have been trying to talk about this

thing and other things for the last ten years. I found it

very, very difficult to talk about these things that I think

ought to be talked about, very difficult. I talked to

reporters from various papers, and I talked to people in

other forms of meetings, and to me it is not surprising at

all.

I think, or I am certain, in my own mind, that, if

these people were approached that some of these people --

Mr. Goldsmith. Why has it been difficult?

Mr. Wilcott. Well, it has been difficult because people

don't want to get involved, and people were scared. I was

scared until the Carter Administration. I was really scared

to go to the Government and talk about any of these things.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did you bring your allegation to the

attention of the Warren Commission?

Mr. Wilcott. No, I didn't.

Mr. Goldsmith. And what is the reason for that?

Mr. Wilcott. I really didn't think that the Warren

Commission was out to really get at the facts, and I am not

saying that they purposely did anything, because I don't

know, and maybe they did or maybe they didn't, but certainly,

they didn't impress me as really trying to scrutinize the

evidence that there was. And their security that there is

in the Government didn't strike me as the kind of security

that would keep me from getting attacked in some way, if

someone wanted to do it.

Mr. Goldsmith. How did you know, in 1963, what type

of security precautions the Warren Commission had for con-

ducting its investigation?

Mr. Wilcott. I don't understand.

Mr. Goldsmith. You have indicated that you were not

inclined to go to the Warren Commission because you were con-

cerned about their security?

Mr. Wilcott. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did you have any basis for thinking that

their security was poor?

Mr. Wilcott. In 1963, I wasn't think that much about it.

Mr. Goldsmith. So, it never really came forward for you

to go to the Warren Commission, did it?

Mr. Wilcott. Not until after I left the agency.

Mr. Goldsmith. When was the first time that you alleged

in public that Oswald was a CIA agent.

Mr. Wilcott. In 1968.

Mr. Goldsmith. So, you first came across this

information in November of 1963, is that correct?

Mr. Wilcott. That is correct.

Mr. Goldsmith. And the first time you alleged in public

this allegation was in 1968?

Mr. Wilcott. That is correct.

Mr. Goldsmith. Why did you wait five years?

Mr. Wilcott. We thought every year, my wife and I and

the friends that we had -- we said, "Well, this is one thing

that they aren't going to keep a lid on." And we thought

every year it was going to be coming out, and especially

I didn't think that -- since what I had heard was all hearsay

that I would never have seen Oswald or anything like that --

this is not the kind of thing that would be used for even

something like the Warren Commission, and they would have to

have something more substantial than that to go on, aside

from the fact that I never would have done it in the CIA,

being a very risky thing to do with the CIA.

Mr. Goldsmith. Is it fair to say that the CIA is an

operation that runs itself on a "need-to-know" basis?

Would you tell the Committee what the "need-to-know"

principle is?

Mr. Wilcott. It is based on the principle that only

those persons who are involved in a project or involved in

operation -- and even things that would not seem to be at

all in any way secret -- only those people should know about

it and nobody else should know about it, and that was a

"need-to-know" basis

Mr. Goldsmith. If the agency, in fact, was run on the

"need-to-know" basis, how would you account for so many

people supposedly knowing that Oswald was an agent?

Mr. Wilcott. The "need-to-know" principle was not all

that we followed, and just about every one of the big projects

that the agency was involved in, information leaked out,

and we especially within the CIA knew about it, and someone

would go to a party and have a little bit too much to drink

and start saying things that they really shouldn't be saying

to keep in mind what the "need-to-know" principle was.

Mr. Goldsmith. Why would anyone have shared this par-

ticular information with you?

Mr. Wilcott. Especially after Kennedy's assassination,

there was a great deal of very, very serious discontent with

CIA, and the morale at the station had dropped considerably,

and we heard some very, very bitter denunciations of CIA

and the projects that they were undertaking.

Mr. Goldsmith. I am not sure that that is responsive.

Why would anyone share the information that Oswald was an

agent with you, Mr. Wilcott?

Mr. Wilcott. I don't know how to answer that.

Mr. Schaap. Excuse me.

(The witness conferred with his Counsel.)

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you have anything to add in response

to that question?

Mr. Wilcott. Yes, I was on security duty, and on secur-

ity duty, agents were coming in and out of the station, and

I pulled a lot of security duty, three and four nights right

in a row, and pulled as much as 24 hours on weekends, and an

agent would come back from meeting with somebody and he would

be waiting for his wife to pick him up or would be waiting

for a call from one of the indigenous agents that he was

running and a lot of times conversations would be talked.

And I think that is why I probably heard a lot more things

than other people did, for instance, than my wife did,

because of that situation.

Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. Wilcott, when did you leave the

agency?

Mr. Wilcott. I left the agency in April of 1966 for the

Miami Station.

Mr. Goldsmith. I am sorry, I didn't hear.

Mr. Wilcott. -- to the Miami Station.

Mr. Goldsmith. And were you dismissed by the agency 0

did you resign?

Mr. Wilcott. I resigned.

Mr. Goldsmith. To your knowledge, did the CIA ever

conduct an investigation into your allegation that Oswald

was an agent?

Mr. Wilcott. Not that I know of.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did you ever bring your allegation

to the attention of anyone in the CIA?

Mr. Wilcott. No.

Mr. Goldsmith. Can you give the Committee the names of

any persons who might corroborate your allegation?

Mr. Wilcott. All of the people that we mentioned in

the case.

Mr. Goldsmith. And finally, as I said at the beginning

is it fair to say that you are here voluntarily today?

Mr. Wilcott. Yes, it is.

Mr. Goldsmith. And you testified without any

reservation?

Mr. Wilcott. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. And your testimony has been truthful

and candid?

Mr. Wilcott. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. I have nothing further, Mr. Chairman.

31

Mr. Preyer. I will ask a few questions. Why this

information would.come out to a CIA station XXXXXXX rather

than some other part of the world is, I assume, because

Oswald was trained in Japan, according to your belief. He was

in the military service over there, and so you feel be was a

double agent who was trained while he was in the military by

the CIA, and you mentioned he was given a Russian course. And

do you know for a fact that he was given Russian courses?

Mr. Wilcott. No; I know for a fact, or I know from

hearsay, and I believe it to be true from the circumstances

how this conversation came up and so on.

Mr. Preyer. Well, that is the other question that I want

to be very sure on. I think you are making some important

allegations here, and you have been very helpful in giving

some witnesses' names through which we might be able to cor-

roborate it, but I think it is very important that we know

clearly how much of this was cocktail party talk and how much

was shop talk and how much was speculation and rumor and how

much was hard fact.

You mentioned the day after the assassination you talked

to someone at the station about it. Did he say to you, "I

think Oswald was a CIA agent," or did that first person say to

you that he was a CIA agent? Can you recall whether the tone

of it was rumor or shop talk or was the tone of it that "this

is true"?

Mr. Wilcott. Well, sir, the day after the assassination

I don't think that there was any of that kind of talk. The

day after, perhaps, two or three weeks after, the kind of talk

was that CIA was somehow connected.

Mr. Preyer. That was shop talk, speculation, I gather;

people were saying that the CIA is somehow connected with it.

Mr. Wilcott. Well, I believed it to be a little more

than speculation, that the source at least of this kind of

talk was, I believe, to be something more serious than

speculation.

Mr. Preyer. It was your conclusion from that talk that

some of these people might have knowledge that he was a CIA

agent rather than that they were speculating about it?

Mr. Wilcott. Yes, sir.

Mr. Preyer. And you did mention the case officer who

came in and told you that the money he had drawn out a few

weeks earlier was drawn out for Oswald?

Mr. Wilcott. Yes, sir.

Mr. Preyer. He stated that as a fact and not that he

believed it was drawn out for Oswald or it could have been or

something like that?

Mr. Wilcott. It was stated as a fact -- Oswald or the

Oswald project.

Mr. Preyer. How many people were at the station in

XXXXXXXXXXX approximately?

Mr. Wilcott. I believe our full strength was around

XXXXXXX and we never actually had that many, I don't think. It

was about XXX I think, was our actual roster was.

Mr. Preyer. And Miami, was that comparable in size?

Mr. Wilcott. No, sir; that was a smaller station.

Mr. Preyer. So that in XXXX, you indicated, six or

seven people talked to you and were, as I understood it,

rather definite about the Oswald connection?

Mr. Wilcott. Yes, sir.

Mr. Preyer. And dozens of others talked to you in a

general, speculative manner?

Mr. Wilcott. Yes, sir.

Mr. Preyer. Why did you resign from the CIA?

Mr. Wilcott. My wife and I came to believe that what

CIA was doing couldn't be reconciled to basic principles of

democracy or basic principles of humanism.

Mr. Preyer. It had no relation to your performance?

Mr. Wilcott. No, sir; I think I had good performance

reviews right up to the time that I left.

Mr. Preyer. I believe you have written an article about

this, an unpublished article.

Mr. Wilcott. Yes.

Mr. Preyer. And have you made that available to us?

Mr. Wilcott. Yes, I have.

Mr. Preyer. Thank you. I have no further questions.

Mr. Sawyer. Do you distinguish between an agent and a

paid informant or do you use those terms interchangeably?

Mr. Wilcott. Well, sir, I think of an agent as an actual

employee of the Agency; we called them indigenous agents XX

XXXXXX who were agents that were on a regular salary by the

case officer who was running an agent, and then there were a

lot of one-time informers or maybe one- or two- or three-time

informers that were paid like maybe $50 or so to attend a

meeting of a political party or something of that nature.

Mr. Sawyer. When you refer to Oswald as an agent, you

are referring to the extent you have -- as an agent as opposed

to a paid informer, in effect?

Mr. Wilcott. Yes; it is my belief that he was a regular

agent and this was a regular project of the Agency to send

Oswald to the Soviet Union.

Mr. Sawyer. Now, did the XXXXXXX station have any juris-

diction over the Russian operation or within the Soviet Union?

Mr. Wilcott. Yes, sir. That was the SR branch which

had all of the projects having anything to do with the Soviet

Union.

Mr. Sawyer. It went through the XXXXXXX station?

Mr. Wilcott. Well, that was just those that were

assigned to XXXXXX and those projects that were assigned to

XXXXXXXX. Every station was divided up -- at least every class

station was divided up into areas, where we would have a China

branch, Korea branch and XXXXXXXX branch and SR branch and SR

satellite.

Mr. Sawyer. I noticed in somne of the information we are

provided you say that following your leaving the CIA in 1967

or thereabouts, for a period of some three years or so, you

were harassed by the CIA and the FBI and sabotaged, as I

recollect it.

Mr. Wilcott. Yes, sir; I believe that happened.

Mr. Sawyer. Could you tell us what those things

consisted of?

Mr. Wilcott. I think the most significant thing that can

be actually substantiated is the circumstances surrounding my

employment with the community renewal program in Utica, and I

was the finance analyst for the community renewal program in

Utica. One day Frank O'Connor, the director of the program,

called me into his office and he said that he had had a dis-

cussion with the public safety commissioner and that the pub-

lic safety commissioner told him that my phone was bugged,

that my house was under surveillance and that a Federal

indictment was coming down on me at any time, that he had

talked to the mayor and the mayor decided not to fire me but

asked me to sign a resignation form which he would date the

day previous to the date that the Federal indictment came

down.

Mr. Sawyer. Who told this to the community development

people?

Mr. Wilcott. My boss, Frank O'Connor said that this was

told him by the public safety commissioner and that the FBI

had told the public safety commissioner.

Mr. Sawyer. Who is the public safety commissioner?

Mr. Wilcott. I don't remember his name now offhand.

Mr. Sawyer. Was he in Utica?

Mr. Wilcott. Yes. The mayor, Mr. Sawyer, was Dominic

Casaro. He was the mayor at that time.

Mr. Sawyer. Were there any other instances of harass-

ment?

Mr. Wilcott. Yes, there were several other incidents

that I believe could possibly be somehow connected with CIA.

Mr. Sawyer. What were they?

Mr. Wilcott. Well, they were such incidents as the FBI

agent that was working with a group -- and this was an estab-

lished fact that this person was an FBI agent and that he wa

working with the group that I was working with an antiwar

group and, to my mind, there is a very great likelihood that

this person was there to neutralize me, as the CIA term went.

Mr. Sawyer. What did he do -- anything?

Mr. Wilcott. Well, I would get calls and they would say

"We know all about you," shooting a machine gun into the

phone, and hang up, and I would get notes written in snow or

my windshield and I had slips of paper left under my

windshield and this sort of thing.

Mr. Sawyer. What would they say?

Mr. Wilcott. They were extremely vulgar and I don't

think that I should give the full context of them.

Mr. Sawyer. What was the gist of them?

Mr. Wilcott. Well, it was "We all know all about you"

and signed "The Minutemen" or some very vulgar remarks and "We

know all about you and signed "Minutemen."

Mr. Sawyer. What was the name of the FBI agent who you

think infiltrated this antiwar group?

Mr. Wilcott. Gordon Finch.

Mr. Sawyer. He was in Utica also?

Mr. Wilcott. Yes.

Mr. Sawyer. What were some other instances?

Mr. Wilcott. Well, my tires were slashed and damage done

to my car and I believe sugar poured in the gas tank, and

whether this was actually CIA or not I have no way of knowing,

and it could also have been just for harassment as a result of

antiwar activities but I think there is also a possibility

that it could have been attempts to intimidate me into

talking about the CIA.

Mr. Sawyer. Are there any others that you can specifi-

ally identify as coming from the CIA or FBI?

Mr. Wilcott. I don't confirm any of them except with

the community renewal program as coming from there and I am

suspicious that many of the other things that happened may

have had as its source the CIA.

Mr. Sawyer. Well, what were your antiwar activities

that you refer to?

Mr. Wilcott. We had -- in Utica there was a group called

the Vietnam Educational Council, which was informed people,

formed to inform people as to what was going on in Vietnam,

and we didn't feel that there was coverage enough in the

media as to what was going on, and the purpose of the Vietnam

Educational Council was to inform people as to what was

going on.

I was on the executive committee along with doctors and

lawyers and some of the most respected people in the

community.

Mr. Sawyer. How long were you associated with that?

Mr. Wilcott. Approximately two years, sir.

Mr. Sawyer. Thank you. That is all I have.

Mr. Dodd. I have just a couple of questions. First of

all I apologize for having to run in and out during your tes-

timony and some of this you may have already covered; and, if

you have, then I will not proceed with it. But I was

intrigued -- and it may have been in the transcription but

you were in XXXXX as financial disbursement officer -- is it

your testimony that you were told by a case officer that you

had disbursed funds for an Oswald project?

39
Mr. Wilcott. Yes, sir.

Mr. Dodd. Am I to believe by that that you were not

aware at the time you made the disbursement that it was, in

fact, an Oswald project?

Mr. Wilcott. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Dodd. It would have been a cryptonym and he was

telling you, you had, in fact, made a disbursement?

Mr. Wilcott. Yes sir.

Mr. Dodd. And this would have been, now, shortly after

the assassination?

Mr. Wilcott. Yes, sir.

Mr. Dodd. Talking about hours afterwards or a day

afterwards?

Mr. Wilcott. It was at least a matter of weeks and

perhaps as much as three months after.

Mr. Dodd. After the assassination actually occurred?

Mr. Wilcott. Yes.

Mr. Dodd. When you were told all of this?

Mr. Wilcott. Yes.

Mr. Dodd. And it includes the information that Oswald

Was an agent?

Mr. Wilcott. Yes, sir.

Mr. Dodd. Was he described as an agent to you or was he

described as an operative or a paid informant?

Mr. Wilcott. No, sir; he was described to me as an

agent and I was led to believe, from the conversations that

he was an agent.

Mr. Dodd. As a point of information, are people who

work within the Agency fairly careful in their language in

describing what the category of certain people are who work

for the Agency?

Mr. Wilcott. Generally so, I would say, at that time.

Mr. Dodd. And it is your clear recollection that he was

described as an agent?

Mr. Wilcott. Yes, sir.

Mr. Dodd. And the information given you occurred some-

time three months after the actual assassination. That would

have put it into 1964?

Mr. Wilcott. Yes, sir, early 1964.

Mr. Dodd. When did you leave to go back?

Mr. Wilcott. June of 1964.

Mr. Wilcott. So it was sometime between February and

June of 1964?

Mr. Wilcott. Or perhaps January.

Mr. Dodd. In. 1964, of course, the Vietnam war was going

on and Lyndon Johnson was now president. And when did you

begin to develop attitudes of dissatisfaction with the Agency

and its reaction and attitudes toward what you described as

undemocratic principles and a lack of humanism?

Mr. Wilcott. Well, actually even prior to the Kennedy

assassination, my wife and I both became disturbed about the

stories that we kept hearing about things, control of

newspapers and so on.

Mr. Dodd. How long had you been married by the way?

Mr. Wilcott. We were married in 1954, sir.

Mr. Dodd. And you and your wife both went to work for

the CIA about the same time?

Mr. Wilcott. Yes, sir.

Mr. Dodd. In 1957?

Mr. Wilcott. Yes, sir.

Mr. Dodd. Am I to presume that you told your wife of

the conversation you had with this case officer at the time

it occurred?

Mr. Wilcott. Yes, sir.

Mr. Dodd. And she was aware of it from 1964 up until

1968 --

Mr. Wilcott. Yes, sir.

Mr. Dodd. -- when you decided to release that

information?

Mr. Wilcott. Yes, sir.

Mr. Dodd. And your dissatisfaction with the Agency and

with the course of American government preceded the actual

assassination of President Kennedy?

Mr. Wilcott. Well, with the Agency, yes, sir.

Mr. Dodd. And this was a view shared by you and your

wife --

Mr. Wilcott. Yes, sir.

Mr. Dodd. -- at that time?

Mr. Wilcott. Yes.

Mr. Dodd. Did anyone else at the Agency know of your

views at the Agency and did you communicate with other people

about your dissatisfaction?

Mr. Wilcott. Yes.

Mr. Dodd. Would you care to tell us any of the names of

people whom you communicated with?

Mr. Wilcott. Particularly George Breen and XXXXXXXXX to

a lesser extent.

Mr. Dodd. I am a little confused, I suppose,

Mr. Wilcott. Did you vote for President Kennedy?

Mr. Wilcott. Yes, sir, I did.

Mr. Dodd. You liked him?

Mr. Wilcott. Very much.

Mr. Dodd. I am just a little confused, I guess, over

your reaction. Here, by your own testimony, you were sup-

portive of the President, and certainly the most significant

tragedy, I think, probably in the last 15 years or 20 years

was the assassination of President Kennedy, and you are told

by some who worked for the Agency that Oswald was a CIA agent

and you already were dissatisfied with the actions of the

Agency and you are told this in 1964 and yet it takes four

years, or two years, after you had left the Agency, recogniz-

ing the tremendous import and significance of that, and I am

terribly confused as to why you decided to keep that

information to yourself and to your wife.

Mr. Wilcott. I was afraid quite frankly.

Mr. Dodd. You may have covered this as well, Mr. Chair-

man, and, if you have, I will drop the question. But you

apparently indicated that you feel there was a direct connec-

tion between the Bay of Pigs operation and the assassination

of the President. Did you cover this ground? Did you want

to do this or intend to proceed with that line of questioning?

Mr. Goldsmith. I did not intend to get into that area.

Mr. Dodd. Just one second, then.

Mr. Wilcott, maybe we can expedite this somewhat by ask

mg you this: Do you have any first-hand knowledge or infor-

mation as to a link between the failed Bay of Pigs operation

and the assassination of John Fitzgerald Kennedy?

Mr. Wilcott. No, sir.

Mr. Dodd. I have no further questions.

Mr. Cornwell. In the conversations which you have

described occurring within a period of one, two or three

months after the assassination with other CIA employees and

officers, did they suggest in those conversations to you that

their employment, the CIA's employment, of Oswald had any

relation to the assassination or only that it related to the

events you have already described -- namely, the training of

him in Atsugi in the Russian language and the sending of him

to Russia and using of him as a double agent and that sort of

thing?

Mr. Wilcott. I am sorry, sir; I lost the thread of your

question.

Mr. Cornwell. In the conversations you had with other

CIA employees, the six or seven persons who purported to have

good information about the use of Oswald as an agent, did any

of those people say anything to you which suggested that the

CIA had some role in the assassination of President Kennedy?

Mr. Wilcott. Yes, sir.

Mr. Cornwell. What did they say along those lines?

Mr. Wilcott. Along those lines they said things like,

well, that Oswald couldn't have pulled the trigger, that only

CIA could have set up such an elaborate project and there was

nobody with the kind of knowledge or information that could

have done this, and this was more in the speculative realm.

As far as that they actually said, they said they were

having trouble with Oswald and that there was dissatisfaction

with Oswald after he caine back from the Soviet Union, and the

would say things like "Well, you know this was the way to get

rid of him -- to get him involved in this assassination thing

and put the blame on Cuba as a pretext for another invasion

or another attack against Cuba."

That was the kind of things that people said. How much

exact knowledge they had it is impossible for me to say. I

believe it was more in a speculative realm.

Mr. Cornwell. At several points in your testimony you

have stated there were six or seven persons, and on each occa-

sion you raised the extent of their knowledge as "knew" or

"believed." Apart from the one officer who said to you that

you had paid monies with respect to Oswald's cryptonym, what

were the other six or seven persons' purported connection

with Oswald and the Agency's relation to him.

Mr. Wilcott. They never revealed that to me, sir, as

far as their relations with Oswald.

Mr. Cornwell. Do you have any knowledge, based upon

your tenure XXXXXXX as to who would have trained Oswald in

the Russian language if that occurred?

Mr. Wilcott. No, sir.

Mr: Preyer. Let me interrupt. I am afraid we are going

to have to leave to make this vote right now. I will be back

in about 10 minutes.

(Whereupon, a brief recess was taken.)

Mr. Preyer. The committee will resume. Did you have

further questions?

Mr. Cornwell. The cryptonym -- did you write it down at

any point?

Mr. Wilcott. I may have, sir, and I can't remember

exactly for sure. It seems to me that I recall jotting it on

a little pad. that I had at my gate, and I did that with cryp-

tonyms from time to time for something -- we would want to

check back into their accounting for something.

Mr. Cornwell. Is there any chance that that record stil

exists?

Mr. Wilcott. I doubt it, sir.

Mr. Cornwell. Your best memory is, you wrote it on a

note paid, is. that correct?

Mr. Wilcott. That is true, sir.

Mr. Cornweil. What routinely was done with such note

pads?

Mr. Wilcott. Usually I threw them away at the end of

the day or once in a while I would put it in -- I had a

little folder where I kept personal things and it is possible

I could have out it in there, but certainly it would have bee

destroyed when I left.

Mr. Cornwell. Do you recall whether or not you used that

in the process of looking through the 30-day book you

described?

Mr. Wilcott. I can't remember, sir.

Mr. Cornwell. It was not normally part of your duties

or the scope of the knowledge that you routinely acquired on

your job, as I understand it, for you to know what the

cryptonyms meant; is that correct?

Mr. Wilcott. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Cornwell. However, I take it from the fact that, as

you describe it, it wasn't always applied, that occasionally

you did learn something about the identities of the persons

or projects that the cryptonyms referred to; is that correct?

Mr. Wilcott. That is true.

Mr. Cornwell. When this cryptonym was given to you by

the officer, did any part of it ring any familiar note with

you? Did you recognize any part of it, the first two letters

or the last portions of it, as referring to any geographic

area or any type of activity or anything like that?

Mr. Wilcott. No, sir, not that I can recall.

Mr. Cornwell. Had you ever run into any similar

cryptonym?

Mr. Wilcott. Yes, sir.

Mr. Cornwell. In other words, that is, the first two

letters or the last ones would have been the same as this?

Mr. Wilcott. Yes, sir; it was a cryptonym that I was

familiar with, that it must have been at least two or three

occasions that I had remembered it and it did ring a bell,

yes.

Mr. Cornwell. Do you remember anything about it?

Mr. Wilcott. Not at this time. I can't remember what

it was.

Mr. Cornwell. All you can recall is that, when you

heard it, that was not the first occasion on which you had

seen it or heard it?

Mr. Wilcott. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Cornwell. Why did you leave the CIA?

Mr. Wilcott. My wife and I both left the CIA because we

became convinced that what CIA was doing couldn't be recon-

ciled to basic principles of democracy or basic principles of

humanism.

Mr. Cornwell. Is that the only reason?

Mr. Wilcott. The principal reason --

Mr. Cornwell. Let me rephrase it. Was there any dispute

between you and the Agency?

Mr. Wilcott. No, sir.

Mr. Cornwell. Did they request that you leave?

Mr. Wilcott. No, sir, they did not.

Mr. Cornwell. Did any event cause any disagreement

between you and the Agency?

Mr. Wilcott. No, sir.

Mr. Cornwell. Had you done anything or said anything

engaged in any activity which became of concern to them?

Mr. Wilcott. No, sir. I had been involved at one poin

with a group civil rights group, and they had investigated

it and said that there was no wrongdoing on my part as far a

this association with the civil rights group.

Mr. Cornwell. What group was it?

Mr. Wilcott. This was SNIC, the Student Nonviolent

Coordinating Committee before they became a black power group

Mr. Cornwell. What, if any, investigation did the Agency

do with respect to that?

Mr. Wilcott. They called me up to chief of security,

the agent security, and they interviewed me on the association

that I had had with the group, and then they gave me a poly-

graph -- in fact, two polygraphs -- concerning my association

with the group of people that I met with the group.

Mr. Cornwell. Did they tell you whether or not you

passed the polygraphs?

Mr. Wilcott. Yes, they did. They told me that I had

passed both of those.

Mr. Cornwell. It is your testimony, as I understand it,

the first time that you spoke about the Oswald agency matter

outside of the CIA was after you left the CIA; is that

correct?

Mr. Wilcott. That is true, sir.

Mr. Cornwell. On that occasion to whom did you speak?

Mr. Wilcott. When I first started speaking, both my

wife and I discussed it and we felt that we should be speak-

ing out about not only Oswald but some other things. The was

that we did this was to contact as many people all at once

and we figured this would be our best protection, that the

more people that knew about it, the more protection it would

be for us.

Mr. Cornwell. What type of people were they?

Mr. Wilcott. Most of the people were involved in the

civil rights movement or in the antiwar movement in 1968.

Mr. Cornwell. How many of them were newspaper or maga-

zine reporters or involved in at least the news business ?

Mr. Wilcott. None initially. The first contact I had

with any reporter or any newspaper people or any media people

was with Glad Day Press.

Mr. Cornwell. What year was that?

Mr. Wilcott. That was late '68 or perhaps early 1969.

Mr. Cornwell. You had signed a secrecy oath while you

were employed with the Agency?

Mr. Wilcott. Yes, sir.

Mr. Cornwell. Did you -- at the time you made the deci-

sion to discuss outside of the Agency this matter, did you

focus on the secrecy oath problem?

Mr. Schaap. Mr. Chairman, I would like to interpose, I

guess, an objection, although I would like to make it more in

the nature of a request, that I have some problems in terms

of advising my client with respect to possibly self-

incrimination, that I would not advise him to go into ques-

tions of his specific knowledge of the oath and the

application to what he did other than the fact that he has

told you, which is a fact, that he did sign the oath; but to

go into his mental processes as to whether he felt what he was

then doing related to the oath in a particular way, I would

request that those questions not be asked on the grounds that

they may violate either his First Amendment rights or his

Fifth Amendment rights, if that would be all right. If you

have something --

Mr. Cornwell. Perhaps I can rephrase the question and

get more pointedly what I need without running into the prob-

lem that you see.

Did you contact any CIA officer or employee with respect

to the secrecy oath and discuss with them whether or not you

should be permitted to discuss these matters outside of the

Agency?

Mr. Wilcott. No, sir, I did not.

Mr. Cornwell. To your knowledge, when was the first

point in time at which your extra-agency discussions on this

subject matter came to the attention of the Agency, if ever?

Mr. Wilcott. I have no idea, sir.

Mr. Cornwell. At what point in time did your discussions

outside of the Agency first become a matter of publication in

a newspaper or magazine or on television?

Mr. Wilcotit. In December of 1975, in the little magazine

called The Pelican at the University of California, and an

interview was conducted by a reporter from that magazine.

Mr. Cornwell. And would that -- at least in part --

would that interview have contained your resume of the Oswald

agency matter, your statements about that matter?

Mr. Wilcott. Very briefly it did, yes, in what was

finally published.

Mr. Cornwell. That is, that subject matter, your state-

ment on the Oswald agency matter, be printed or otherwise

publicized in a news publication, radio or TV or anything

like that on any other occasion?

Mr. Wilcott. Yes, sir.

Mr. Cornwell. When was that?

Mr. Wilcott. On two other occasions, I was on KPOO

Radio in San Francisco and I discussed in detail, in quite a

bit of detail, the speculations and also the incident of the

case officer contacting me at the window.

Mr. Cornwell. What year was that?

Mr. Wilcott. That was November of 1977.

Mr. Cornwell. Last November?

Mr. Wilcott. Yes.

Mr. Cornwell. On any other occasion?

Mr. Wilcott. Yes sir; at Oakland Technical High

School, at the invitation of -- the social department asked

me if I wanted to speak and I said yes, and so I spoke to two

classes at Oakland Technical High School. This was about,

believe -- about October of 1975.

Mr. Cornwell. On any other occasions?

Mr. Wilcott. Not publicly. I spoke to groups in their

homes and I spoke to groups in the Peace and Freedom Party and

I was with the Peace and Freedom Party for several years.

Mr. Cornwell. But your testimony or your statements on

the subject hadn't been made a matter of publicity on any

other occasion?

Mr. Wilcott. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. Cornwell. Has any representative of the Agency or

anyone who you believed might be a representative of the

Agency ever come to you and discussed these matters?

Mr. Wilcott. Not directly, no, sir.

Mr. Cornwell. I have no further questions.

Mr. Preyer. Under our committee rules, Mr. Wilcott, a

witness is entitled, at the conclusion of the questioning, to

make a five-minute statement if he wishes or to give a fuller

explanation of any of his answers; so that at this time we

make that five minutes available to you if you care to

elaborate or say anything further.

Mr. Wilcott. I don't really have anything and maybe I

would just like to say I think it is time we got this thing

cleared up; and I think for the good of the country and for

good of the people I think it is really time that all of

the facts were brought out and the people really get the

facts.

Mr. Preyer. Thank you. We appreciate that, and if at

any time you think of any further way in which your testimony

can be corroborated or the name of any other CIA man or any

record or anything of that sort that might be available we

hope you will get in touch with us and let us know about it.

Mr. Wilcott. Surely, sir.

Mr. Preyer. Thank you very much and we appreciate you

and Mr. Schaap being with us today, and the hearing will stand

in recess.

(Whereupon, at 12:55 p.m. the subcommittee recessed.)

Click button at left to read long-suppressed House Select Committe on Assassinations staff notes that indicate how much Wilcott apparently was not allowed to say during his testimony. There is a great deal of information here, including the CIA cryptonym for Oswald or the "Oswald Project."